Interview: Robert Thurman
Robert Thurman was named by Time as one of the 25 most influential Americans. A 45-year colleague of the Dalai Lama, Thurman was the first American ordained as a Buddhist monk. He cofounded the Tibet House with Richard Gere and is professor at Columbia University. Professor Thurman is an articulate writer and speaker passionately committed to human rights. LA YOGA sat down with Professor Thurman after the release of his latest book, Why the Dalai Lama Matters, an invaluable resource and rallying
call for activists everywhere.
FMT: In your book: Why the Dalai Lama Matters, you outline different steps that the Chinese and the Tibetans can take that provide
hope for a peaceful solution.
RT: We have to realize that it can happen. Maybe they won’t do it, but it can happen, easily. It would benefit them. Like we could just walk out of Iraq and leave them alone.
After all, we are sitting here only a few years after the Soviet Union just walked out of Eastern Europe and the apartheid government
gave up and turned South Africa over the African National Congress. Both miracles we accomplished with the help of economic
sanctions after years of pressure, since the people involved were bored with the violent oppression. But we didn’t apply that effective policy to China. China didn’t transform, yet still we gave them everything they wanted. That was a turning time 1988-92: the end of the Cold War. China could have made a different turn then. But Bush and his corporate people instead used the Chinese to postpone facing the music about our own unsustainable, consumerist ways of living. Dumping off labor there, ruining our labor force, wrecking our country’s economy; using China to do this, but wrecking China in the process.
If you’re a Chinese leader, you really don’t know the real facts about Tibet. Hu Jintao was in charge of Tibet in the late 80s, but he ran it from Beijing. He went for two days and couldn’t handle the altitude. It’s 14,000 ft. outsiders coming from low altitude regions
can’t live there long-term. Yet the Chinese now are trying to colonize. It’s unrealistic. If millions of Chinese could live in Tibet, they would have been there hundreds of years ago; it’s a huge country. A million square miles. The fact is, they don’t have to colonize in order to own Tibet, to mine it, to invest in it. Tibetans will happily develop various industries and sell them their resources, as long as they keep it green and clean. It will remain environmentally secure as long as the Dalai Lama is watching the Tibetan Parliament
to make sure they don’t start selling out.
FMT: In The Open Road, Pico Iyer made the point that since the Tibetan government is in exile and the current Dalai Lama is a great er public figure than ever, there is more unity among Tibetans.
RT: Yes, there still are factions, but they’re more united. The Dalai Lama used to joke, “I’m the most popular Dalai Lama in all of
history because of Mao. If I had been living in Tibet this whole time with my government giving orders, I would have been more unpopular. If my government was telling Tibetans to do this, pay this tax, they’d be grumbling about the Dalai Lama this whole time.
But because I’m a symbol of liberty, they love me.”
FMT: Are people really going to stay committed to their spiritual tradition without His Holiness? Will they preserve Tibet as an environmental reserve?
RT: The Dalai Lama is not going to be able to retire. They’re not going to say, “Oh yeah, you can retire.” “Why does the Dalai Lama matter”? In that title my point is: he is the solution for the Chinese. Unless the Dalai Lama is there to tell them, “It’s in our interest to vote for China, if they really give us internal liberty, stop trying to colonize us, get the troops off our back, give us our own Tibetan police and our own parliament in a ‘one country two systems’ arrangement,” the Tibetans are unlikely to want to get along with China – they have taken too much abuse. If the Chinese don’t take advantage of the Dalai Lama’s help now, if they don’t let the Dalai
Lama make the deal in the next few years, then all bets are off. It’s absolutely in the Chinese interest to recognize the friendship of
the Dalai Lama right now, and go to work taking the steps needed to accept his offer.
FMT: You state that the Dalai Lama could be great PR for the Chinese.
RT: Yep. He would be if the Tibetan people were okay. He’s not for sale at any price, but if the Chinese would accept the autonomous freedom of the Tibetan people, then he’ll be their friend.
FMT: Food production and grain in China is a current problem.
RT: That’s one issue I didn’t get into in my book. Chinese families used to eat pork once a month, now they’re eating it every day, maybe twice a day. They’re feeding a lot of grain to the pigs, and it’s doubling and tripling their grain consumption. So, get the Dalai Lama to revive Buddhism in China. The Chinese, when they practice Buddhism, are the best practitioners of vegetarianism. That would then turn hundreds of millions of Chinese back to vegetarianism and save on their grain budget. The Dalai Lama did say there is one good thing the Chinese can help the Tibetans with: building greenhouses and helping them to cultivate vegetables at that high altitude.
FMT: What is the current political situation doing to Tibetan families in exile?
RT: It’s a cultural genocide that’s going on in Tibet. We can’t deny it. Eighty to ninety percent of children in Tibet are malnourished.
[The Chinese] are moving Tibetan nomads into city ghettos, under the claims that the Tibetans are the ones ruining the lands. But this isn’t the case. How could the Tibetans ruin the land they’ve thrived on for millennia? The Chinese are moving Tibetans into slums, confiscating their two thousand dollar yaks, then what? Then the Chinese themselves put horses and cattle and sheep and goats onto the land, ruining everything, because unlike yaks those animals uproot the grasses. Then, as they did once before, creating the famines of the 50s and 60s, they’re forcing the nomads to live in little adobe shacks. It’s genocidal.
Actually, the whole Chinese attempt at colonization of the area is self-destructive. They’re ruining their own water towers, the headwaters of their own rivers.
FMT: In China right now, and all over the world, the water table is dropping.
RT: Yeah, but that’s the crazy Western disease of uncontrolled industrialization. I don’t blame the Chinese. Russia was using the Chinese through Marxism: destroying their family system, their gardening, their sense of basic trust in their own families, their spirituality, so the Russians wrecked them ideologically for a while. Then we came along and wrecked them again with self-destructive industrialization. They still haven’t found their own indigenous sort of balance again, as distinctively Chinese.
FMT: The Dalai Lama wanted you to write a political book.
RT: He might have been happy if I had written an analysis of the history about the legal status of Tibet, the evidence is out there, but nobody really says anything. The Chinese have no case at all. They want the Dalai Lama to say Tibet has always been part of China, but he can’t. That’s a lie. That wouldn’t be the act of truth that he lives by. His principle, his Buddhist ethic, compels him to stand up for the truth, no matter what the pressure. That’s where Gandhi’s satyagraha comes from; it means “holding to truth.” I thought that speaking up for his integrity on this was the key thing, because almost everyone has given up. When a genocide is going on, you have to really speak out in order to save the people and their culture.
FMT: Do you think President Hu [of China] will read the book? Do you hope that he does?
RT: There are some people who know him, and know the gist of the book, they could tell him about it. I imagine him getting some memo that there is this idea, and even then some people might say he may be able to get a Nobel Peace Prize if he reverses the present course and takes the right steps to solve the problem and make peace and harmony.
FMT: That would be a strong motivator, especially considering all of the criticism aimed at China over the last years.
RT: It’s the carrot. Someone said, “Oh, he wouldn’t care about having a peace prize.” I said, “Really? How come they’re spending billions and billions and going all out all over the place, pumping up international PR for the Olympics, if they really don’t want people to admire and honor them?”
FMT: They’re making money too (with the Olympics).
RT: They want R-E-S-P-E-C-T. They’re used to rewriting history with propaganda.
FMT: It seems like Tibet isn’t the only reason they’re getting criticized.
RT: North Korea; that’s a buried one. They could’ve taken out Kim II just like that. They have kept him in power as their useful puppet.
The Chinese have really destroyed the people of North Korea. North Korean refugees flow over that border into China. South Koreans beg and try to let them take those refugees and pay every cent of it, let them have freedom. China won’t do it. They push them back into North Korea where it’s punishable by death to try to escape. Then there’s Burma, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Darfur, and so on – they support every oppressive dictator they can find.
FMT: Tibet has a very prominent, charismatic spokesperson. If the situation in Tibet changed, do you think it would create the opportunity for change in places like Sudan or Burma?
RT: In 1989, the Dalai Lama receives the Nobel Peace Prize. Russia leaves Eastern Europe. Apartheid goes down. Tiananmen Square happens. Marcos had gone down before that. South Korean Democracy arose. A Huge Sweep. But what happened? Where does the wave break and turn back? In Tiananmen Square. Then the Burmese junta arrests Aung San Suu Kyi and ignores the election that brought her to power.
FMT: Does the Dalai Lama offer an opportunity for the wave to move in the other direction?
RT: What has the Dalai Lama stood for? He wrote a letter to Bush after 9/11. “Violence won’t help. I’m sure you’ll make a wise decision.” He admitted once that some advisors tried to get him to take that sentence out. “Violence won’t help.” But he didn’t. He gave a talk right after that to the European Parliament, talking about how horrendous 9/11 was, but that the twenty-first century must not be a century of war like the twentieth century. War no longer works. You don’t win, war just creates terrorism. The Dalai Lama didn’t give the reasoning in detail, but Jonathan Schell does in The Unconquerable World: Power, Nonviolence, and the Will of the People.
One hundred years ago, war was a means to conquer other countries, because the conquered people would then have to give you their tax money. You can’t do that now, because now, 90% of the victims of war are civilians, not soldiers. You destroy the trust of the country. You create terrorism because you kill entire families, dislodging them from life, then they become desperate. Then you get terrorist blowbacks; they have high-powered weapons and you have magnified people’s vindictiveness. You cannot dominate them for long, it will no longer work.
You can go around exterminating people 100%, but to do that you need nuclear weapons, and then you pollute yourself. Nobody will win. Like in Vietnam, we’re not facing reality in Iraq. And the Israelis are not getting durable security through overwhelming force.
FMT: People are trying to perpetuate security with more violence.
RT: The Dalai Lama is the one leader in the whole world who goes against that. If his non-violence in liberating Tibet does not succeed, then something else will happen.
FMT: What do you suggest that people do?
RT: I suggest that people read my book, also read Schell, and the Dalai Lama himself. The thing that I love in a review I had in Booklist was, they said my plan is “highly commonsensical and wildly improbable.” Which I like! It means that when we recognize the most sensible thing, we want to be accepting of what makes common sense; but we’re reduced to feeling completely unable to do anything about it because insane leaders won’t do the commonsensical thing. They’re not realistic, not practical. They put their ego whichever way, they don’t look at the reality of the situation. They don’t face it. So we’re used to that. And me too. Emotionally. If Reagan came back as a ghost and ran for president, I would be like, “Okay. Another one.”
The thing is…read that book, then visualize what it could be like in every situation. Get a little bit of the “Yes we can!” spirit into everything we do. Make sure that with whatever it is we find important, — it doesn’t have to be Tibet — we see a way through. We don’t have to live in despair and fear.
My favorite slogan now is: “Our duty therefore, is to live in such a way that we are through and through feeling we’re going in a good direction and we’re really happy. In fact, we insist on being so happy, that if even if they kill us, we’ll die happy.”
FMT: There’s this idea in yoga, pradipakshabhavana.
RT: Meaning “realize the remedy, the antidote.” Realize it. Make it real.
FMT: It goes back to what you were saying earlier, that you are an optimist. That a lot of other people have given up.
RT: I’m not only an optimist. I’m also a realist. But then, as a realist, and logically, I see it has to go a certain way. Emotionally, I’m conditioned to expect it not to go the right way. To expect misery. If I feel good, the way I’m set by my culture, then I feel frightened that something may go bad. In fact, then I’ll stub my toe or something. Then I’ll feel safe. I can focus on that. We all have that conditioning. We do.
For example, I just met Michael Beckwith. He really touched me. I was in tears at one point. I was feeling a little insecure, because I’m nervous about churches. I always was, as a little kid. My mother said, when I became a Buddhist, “We should’ve known. When you were baptized, you kicked the font and drenched the priest. You made such a fuss. He just took his drenched cassock and wrung it out over your toes.”
But Beckwith is “trans-denominational,” at his church [Agape International Spiritual Center] there are pictures of the Dalai Lama and Gandhi. Reverend Michael sees God as the loving force of the universe. It isn’t just some guy referred to as a capital “He.” Buddhists totally agree with the vision of “God” as the force of love in the universe.
FMT: What can individual people do to have a political voice?
If people want to do political activism, they should, they should raise their voices. But always be mindful of their own feelings. Never get angry with the bad guys. Never be angry with the Hu Jintaos, the Cheneys, Bushes and McCains. You can’t be angry if your mother got demented and was attacking you with a kitchen knife. You would try to stop her energetically, but you wouldn’t be angry and hateful, yelling at her. You would try to calm her down and disarm her, or else get away quickly.
FMT: It seems that hate and anger is a form of violence itself.
RT: Exactly. The only thing you can hate is hate. If you hate hate, you can’t be hateful. So the new activism has to be joyful. Isabel Losada had this great slogan in her book [A Beginner’s Guide to Changing the World: For Tibet With Love]: “Think globally, act joyfully.” I’d like to see people join and help the Tibetan culture.
I’d like to see a Tibet House in LA, Tucson, Chicago, San Francisco, et cetera. A destination, a little teeny museum, some talks, some lamas coming through – but not some religious center you have to come and sign up. Not a political place to protest. Just a place to meet the Tibetan culture. The Chinese will see those little cultural embassies everywhere. This would show that you can’t just smother and assimilate a culture, or sweep it under the rug. There are other kinds of activism, like through Art. We’re talking about an information age liberation struggle. We’re not talking about riots in the street with guns. No. We’re talking about moving the hearts of the Chinese people and government through nonviolent creativity and action.
We really don’t want any kind of anger. Now, today, they’ve gotten a little carried away in China and India.
How would a Free Tibet movement in America really help with their success? We have the freedom to educate others, including
the Chinese, about Tibetan culture without being oppressed, arrested or imprisoned. We can reach out to the powerful Chinese American community. They should be able to recognize the bad behavior of their “old country.” They’re not communists here. They wouldn’t enjoy a dictatorship. They’re successful capitalists in a democratic situation.
I’m not saying all Tibetans are innocent, but the Chinese government’s whole approach is to frighten everyone by provoking a few of them into riots. But the Dalai Lama is peaceful. We don’t want any anger. The only way we’ll succeed on this planet is if we’re happy enough.
FMT: It’s a way to break the cycle of violence.
RT: It’s the best way. Happy people are naturally friendly with others, they naturally don’t want violence. Of course, I don’t pretend to be that happy myself! Not quite yet! My kids call me Bob “Get-a-Life” Thurman. My wife says I’m a “Buddhaholic.” I don’t have a life. I’m just working to help people imagine their way to freedom.
For more information about the Robert Thurman’s latest book, The Dalai Lama Matters and his joyous activism on behalf of Tibet, visit dalailamamatters.com.
Robert Thurman is interviewed in the newly released documentary The Voice that investigates the relationship between science and spirituality. For more information, visit:thevoicedvd.com
By Felicia M. Tomasko, RN
Felicia Tomasko has spent more of her life practicing Yoga and Ayurveda than not. She first became introduced to the teachings through the writings of the Transcendentalists, through meditation, and using asana to cross-train for her practice of cross-country running. Between beginning her commitment to Yoga and Ayurveda and today, she earned degrees in environmental biology and anthropology and nursing, and certifications in the practice and teaching of yoga, yoga therapy, and Ayurveda while working in fields including cognitive neuroscience and plant biochemistry. Her commitment to writing is at least as long as her commitment to yoga. Working on everything related to the written word from newspapers to magazines to websites to books, Felicia has been writing and editing professionally since college. In order to feel like a teenager again, Felicia has pulled out her running shoes for regular interval sessions throughout Southern California. Since the very first issue of LA YOGA, Felicia has been part of the team and the growth and development of the Bliss Network.